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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/28/19 5:54 A

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both sound very interesting. need to check them out

SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS SparkPoints: (107,918)
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10/28/19 5:24 A

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I really don't know which film I saw. There is "United 93," also from 2006. Somehow I'd have said that my friend told me about a film only about a year after September 11.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_93_(fil
m)


It, too, is a fictionalized account and the filmmaker states, according to the Wikipedia entry, that he tried to stay as true to fact as possible.


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/27/19 6:43 P

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I should check out my local library.

NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 10,114
10/27/19 8:58 A

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As I thought: "Flight 93", the TV movie is at my local library on DVD.

There are also several video documentaries about that flight.

Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.
~ Goethe

Dare to dream.
~ Me


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/27/19 8:18 A

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I never know what I would do in a situation until I am in that situation. as to the movie, i don't remember hearing about it

PHEBESS's Photo PHEBESS Posts: 45,156
10/27/19 2:06 A

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I tend to say "I would like to think I would do X in that situation" - I always hope I would do the heroic thing but as you say, Allison, how would I know until I'm in that situation?

"Dance as if no one is watching."


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SUNNYCALIGIRL's Photo SUNNYCALIGIRL Posts: 17,357
10/26/19 5:57 P

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NUMD97

I totally get that and agree with you about that last thing. One of my pet peeves is when people imagine themselves in a horrific situation and make statements such as "I would do this or that."
My response to that is "How do you know?!".


Allison
Destitutus ventis, remos adhibe.--Latin Proverb
"If the wind will not serve, take to the oars."


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NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 10,114
10/26/19 4:00 P

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This is the movie to which you refer:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_93_(f
il
m)


It was a TV movie, but I'll bet it was also transferred to DVD.

The one major difference that this flight had from the other flights that crashed into the World Trade Center was time. News had already broken about the other two flights and the ones on 93 had a chance to better assess the situation, because they were still on the ground and in communication with their families by cell phones. That made all the difference.

I have learned in my old age that one can never judge what someone else is going through in such horrific, extreme circumstances. You just never know what you, yourself would do until the situation actually presents itself to you.

Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.
~ Goethe

Dare to dream.
~ Me


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SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS SparkPoints: (107,918)
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10/26/19 11:14 A

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Nu introduced the interwoven topics of blame/cowardice/action/compliance/and more and how we respond to them, whether at the time or in hindsight. The Holocaust has raised the question for me, but the first time it rang especially loudly pertained to Flight 93, the plane that crashed in a Pennsylvania field on September 11.

It was perhaps a year later that a friend told me about a television documentary about the flight and some of the passengers, et al. Hearing about two couples affected by the flight sent me searching for the film online; it took years to find. I can't really say whether I saw the entire film or excerpts or only heard audio. None of that really is relevant, though. Here, to the best of my recall:

One man on the plane phoned his wife. During their conversation, she asked him what he was going to do or encouraged him to do something to overtake the hijackers. They talked about options and the possible outcomes. They had to have been aware that he might die regardless of taking action, but still they considered what he might do. It wasn't stated in the film, but I extrapolated that each of them felt that they had given and received just everything they could want and so they were prepared never to be together again. If I'm correct, theirs was a magnificent partnership and, to this day when I think of the film and them, I feel pain that they no longer share it. They were "regular people" put to a test and they triumphed. I hope that the people in their lives understand that they were honored to have known them.
(I believe that this couple was 'youngish' and had a couple of young children.)

By contrast, another male passenger phoned his wife. She cautioned him to stay in his seat, remain quiet and do nothing to call attention to himself. Not to be noticed was his best chance for survival. I might have expected that I'd disdain this couple, but that's not at all the case. (I believe that this couple was older than the other.) For the first time I was aware that we are not all made of the same stuff and that perhaps we have permission from the universe to be who and what we are. Maybe if I'd seen the film on a different day, I might have judged them differently. I don't know, but to this day, I always find that I can let them be who they were at that moment in their lives.

What is the answer? There may be none.

(Has anyone here seen that film?)

Edited by: SYLPHINPROGRESS at: 10/26/2019 (11:17)
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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/26/19 8:45 A

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yes that one person was hitler and she does not realize that Hitler had lots of help. in the same conversation, she asked if I got negative comments about Jews, and I said yes of course, like Jew you out of Money, Kikes, all Jews have horns on their heads. I think she did get that

NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 10,114
10/25/19 8:15 P

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When those who could have changed the course of history, the everyday Germans, they just did not choose that path. There was one point in time, according to the historians, that the course of history could hace resulted in a totally different outcome.

But, I have often wondered, on the level of the commonest foot soldiers, how could they have laid down their arms and said, "I can't do this." At that juncture, without question, they would have been shot.



Edited by: NUMD97 at: 10/26/2019 (15:53)
Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.
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Dare to dream.
~ Me


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SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS SparkPoints: (107,918)
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10/25/19 7:50 P

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Gwyn's co-worker's "one person" refers to Hitler and no one or nothing else. What else could she mean? The co-worker somehow has the notion that all those who joined with Hitler to carry out his ideas were puppets or robots with no culpability and no choice.

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PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 5,878
10/25/19 6:51 P

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"one person" maybe just meaning Adolf Hitler himself and just somehow clumping 6 million plus dead as all "one person" because he's the one who instigated much of it??? Just a thought.

And "how did we get here..." well... I'm a bit like @SUNNYCALIGIRL - "Um...sex? " ... which can include all the evolutionary nuances of various reproductive formats... but humans, of course, have the one basic method requiring a male and a female, either in person or in petri dish!

She girds herself with strength, And strengthens her arms.
Proverbs 31:17


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/25/19 6:25 A

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I agree 100% -- which is why I am a humanistic Jew. However, many non Jews do not get the fact that Jews can be an athiest or agnostic and still be Jewish

SUNNYCALIGIRL's Photo SUNNYCALIGIRL Posts: 17,357
10/24/19 3:29 P

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G-d is not responsible for our problems, humans are responsible for our problems through the choices that they make. It is up to people to solve our problems. Judaism believes that babies are not born into sin as some faiths believe, but with the ability to make either good or bad choices. We are born with free will. It is up to people to educate themselves, starting from childhood, on what is a good or bad choice. One of the reasons I pursue my faith as a Reform Jew is that I believe that it educates on good choices. The Shoa was a horrible thing, brought about by people who made bad choices and ended by people who made good ones. I love this book by Rabbi Harold S.Kushner (no relation to Trump's son in law!): When Bad Things Happen to Good People. I recommend reading it.

Edited by: SUNNYCALIGIRL at: 10/24/2019 (15:36)
Allison
Destitutus ventis, remos adhibe.--Latin Proverb
"If the wind will not serve, take to the oars."


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/23/19 7:24 P

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I have learned the hard way that some things just are not worth getting excited over.

and by the way where is BossMan!

SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS SparkPoints: (107,918)
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10/22/19 8:50 A

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Yup, it takes effort not to get wound up.

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NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 10,114
10/22/19 8:47 A

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You and me both, Gwynn. You and me both.

Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.
~ Goethe

Dare to dream.
~ Me


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/22/19 6:16 A

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thanks to both of you. I won't get upset and I still, after all these years, need to learn how to keep my mouth shut in some instances

SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS SparkPoints: (107,918)
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10/21/19 6:48 P

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If Gwyn's co-worker were older than she is, I might think that she had been one of those who managed to look the other way and later said, "I didn't know" or "What could I do?" There is rampant ignorance in the U.S., whether by choice, cowardly school systems, lack of intellectual curiosity or foisted upon the ignorant by some other force. This reminds me of an exchange I had with the SP owner and our team's discussion on his reference to Viktor Frankl in a blog. (I saved those items, but haven't looked at them now or since.)

The woman at the gym today makes my eyes roll with some amusement. Another day I might want to take her in hand or slap her hand. Upon reading Gwyn's topic starter, I thought that this woman would have been mistakenly thrilled by my flippant, "A man and a woman." She would think I was referring to marriage and been grateful to me for thinking I was in support of her view of marriage. Which I'm only guessing at, mind you.

The warnings never to discuss religion or politics in the workplace always rankled me, but they make sense. Gwyn, stay above it. Don't get an upset stomach over the people you see daily. Yes, easy to say.

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NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 10,114
10/21/19 3:31 P

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An atheist easily can be a Jew: It is a person who defines him/herself culturally with the Jewish people. At the same time, this person does not align him/herself with any religious practice of the faith.

In this sense Jews are pretty unique: They can be religious as only they themselves can define it, or simply culturally Jewish.

Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.
~ Goethe

Dare to dream.
~ Me


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/21/19 6:02 A

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Okay so my mother and father were both Jews. their parents were all Jews and before them all Jews so that explains part of how and why I am Jewish--because my mother was and that is how I was brought up.
Without going into a lot of details, my own life has had such awful periods in it I could never understand why I was born the way I was (lived with undiagnosed depression and brain injury for 40 years of my life) and the subsequent problems both those gave me. I look at the world and see: poverty in America, the current president, WWII, the Holocaust, people starving and no one seems to want to do anything about these problems. So, explain to me where is God:

SUNNYCALIGIRL's Photo SUNNYCALIGIRL Posts: 17,357
10/20/19 7:00 P

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I don't understand how an atheist (some one who does not believe in the existence of G-d) can be a Jew. The fact that G-d is unknowable and difficult to define is a stance believed by many religions, however. I don't quite understand where you are coming from, so I looked it up online. Indeed, there is such a thing as "agnostic atheism" which is explained in Wikipedia, i have heard both terms but always presented from Christian reasoning, and found that true in Wikipedia as well. I think they are Christian in origin. And under "Conceptions of God" Wikipedia cites Mordcai Kaplan (of whom I have heard) as being one of the modern Jewish thinkers who "believed that God is the sum of all natural processes that allow man to become self-fulfilled"--thus G-d is a positive function of man's nature.

I don't believe the two women whom you spoke with have the depth of knowledge to actually engage in a meaningful discussion with you about your own personal faith much less have any comprehensive knowledge about religion in general. I avoid talking to people like this. Why bother? Reach out and talk to people about your faith and beliefs who have a better understanding. I promise you, you will be enriched by it.

Also, I understand how you feel. MANY people who are not of your faith but another are just interested in defending their own faith or converting you to theirs! Come up with a phrase, maybe, that you can use to defend yourself and close the conversation with, without causing too much offense? "I have my own beliefs which differ from yours" and drop it or "I don't wish to discuss it" or in the event of "Merry Christmas" you can simply smile and say "Happy Holidays"? Good luck!

I can be an irritant though! I might just have countered the woman with "Sex is how we get here!" and laughed at her. I just read a scientific article recently that figured out once and for all which came first, the chicken or the egg. It made perfect scientific sense, from the stand point of evolution.

Edited by: SUNNYCALIGIRL at: 10/20/2019 (19:12)
Allison
Destitutus ventis, remos adhibe.--Latin Proverb
"If the wind will not serve, take to the oars."


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/20/19 8:56 A

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I am not sure of what the co-worker means as "one person" -- I said that that "one person" had lots of help from other people and she said she new that. any way I will not talk about these particular views of mine any more with either person

NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 10,114
10/20/19 2:10 A

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I will add my voice of confusion to Phebe's: The "one person" confused me, too. I suspect what is meant is, "one point in time". One event. Catastrophic though it may have been. [Inference, I am presuming, is theirs.]

I suspect your coworkers are religious and are taking the argument to that level, as opposed to someone who is, as you say, an "atheist or agnostic".

I agree with you not to continue the conversation. It will not lead anywhere. Especially if someone is a coworker. And it's definitely not the environment you want to do that in.

Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.
~ Goethe

Dare to dream.
~ Me


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PHEBESS's Photo PHEBESS Posts: 45,156
10/20/19 1:56 A

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Well I'm confused. One woman thinks all of the Nazis and the people who went along with them were just one person???

And the other, at the gym, has never heard of evolution???

"Dance as if no one is watching."


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GWYNANNE1's Photo GWYNANNE1 Posts: 4,211
10/19/19 4:52 P

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so I have two people -- one a co-worker and one who I see when I exercise at the local Jewish Community Center -- who are totally baffled when I say I am a Jewish Atheist/agnostic. When I told the co-worker one of the reasons was because of the Holocaust her response was "that was just one person. The woman from the gym said "how do you explain how we got here?" then she told me we would have to have a discussion. what do people think? (the discussion I will probably say no to)

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