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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/20/17 9:51 A

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I have no suggestions Jules.. but I am hoping you find the cause.

Cynthia
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3/20/17 9:25 A

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Nope. I'm still trending high.

So now I know it isn't food. Maybe stress or I'm coming down with something? I feel fine but I'll have to ask my doctor.

PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 5,878
3/19/17 3:37 P

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Did the water work?

And sometimes the glucose testing strips are going bad and name results all kapooey??

Edited: "... name results"..? gotta be a fat-fingered Siri-garbled word swap! I'm sure I would have made more sense if I was more conscious or at a desktop keyboard (where I am now)... probably meant to say something like "...going bad, and making results all kapooey..." - meaning, more or less, sometimes glucose test strips expire and/or were not made correctly and so they read too high or too low, etc. I know one of the glucose testers I have always seemed like I didn't have blood sugar. Only years later did I find out the company had recalled them because their strips etc were actually testing too low.

Edited by: PROVERBS31JULIA at: 3/20/2017 (14:01)
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3/17/17 6:08 P

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Update on fast.

I was mainly doing it to try and "reset" everything to see what was making my blood sugar trend up. I didn't eat anything at midnight and when I took my fasting blood sugar in the morning, it was 131. So it's really high for FBS. No, it isn't that twilight phenomenon beause I took it a few hours later (still fasting) and it was 123.

So. . .I don't know. I had less than 4g of carbs yesterday.

Maybe I'm dehydrated? I will drink more water today and see.

SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/17/17 2:56 P

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Yes, I agree Jennie absolutely with everything you wrote. I have thought about doing the butter/broth fast.

Cynthia
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*JENNIE*'s Photo *JENNIE* Posts: 60
3/16/17 10:33 P

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The issue with a juice fast is that you are having a ton of fructose without fiber - it would be much healthier if you ate the fruit rather than juiced it. It causes large amount of insulin release along with highs & lows in glucose... the medical literature, as well as understanding the physiology of glucose processing, strongly is against this diet for prolonged periods of time as it lowers metabolism over all due to being essentially a pure sugar diet with a loss of the fiber from the food. Doing this a few days for other purposes (religious etc) is one thing but it is a poor choice to do for a long period for weight loss.

Fasting doesn't refer to no water though - people should continue to drink water at least during fasting (some do bone broth for electrolyte when doing longer fasting and some on keto also do butter/MCT coffee).

"Not being able to do everything is no excuse for not doing everything you can."


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3/16/17 10:27 P

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I have about 1.5 hours left on my liquid fast.

I did have a bulletproof coffee first thing this morning so I'm not all that hungry. I don't think at midnight, I'm going to go pigging out or anything. . .most likely I'll either meditate or just go to bed.

It's interesting that I'm not in too much discomfort. Taking some hot broth or tea makes any immediate discomfort go away.

I should probably do this more often to get in tune with my body. I can see how this might prevent me from mindless snacking or emotional eating if I can really get in tune with actual hunger or an actual need for food versus eating out of habit.

I know, I know. . . I'm babbling! LOL

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3/16/17 3:36 P

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I'm doing a liquid fast today.

I did a BPC first thing in the morning and all I will have until tomorrow is water, black coffee, broth, and green tea.

I'm not doing this for weight loss or for spiritual purposes. My blood sugar has been trending upward for about 2 weeks little by little and I'm trying to figure out what the culprit is. So I will slowly introduce foods to see what is causing it.

I've introduced a wide array of keto-safe foods lately to try and vary up what I am eating and my blood sugar is going up so something is causing it and I want to find out what. I've also increased my protein intake and that could be the cause of it.

SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/16/17 2:37 P

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I did a juice fast for 40 days when I first started SP. I lost 30 pounds, but when I started eating again (I did it slow and started with only 500 cal and never went above 1,000)... I gained weight. Within 20 days I had gained all my weight back and messed up my metabolism even more. For me, it wasn't a good thing. I should have known better because when I had started vegan in the early 90s (heavy on carbs like the juice fast)....I had a pesky 5 pounds that I thought I had to lose... after doing it for a couple of years I gained loads of weight and since have gained weight exponentially.
I know that my experience has colored my views on fasting. Everyone is different, but I truly believe that fasting is a good way to muck up the metabolism.

Please take this post for what it is. I am not saying for those who want to do it, not to. It is ultimately their decision. I am just emphasizing caution. I also am not disrespecting the plethora of sites and books extolling the virtues of fasting. I am sure there are positives to it. Just do it with care and I wouldn't recommend it for people who are already suffering from metabolic problems.

Cynthia
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PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 5,878
3/16/17 1:42 P

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Oh that makes sense, a "carb" fast with the veggies and fruits. And many fruits and veggies do have amounts of proteins - so it can add up.

I have done no water no food fasts usually only 24 hours but sometimes as much as 36 hours or so. Maybe more. As a kid, I sure thought I was in imminent danger of starvation!! But these days, two or three days feels good - just that I have the mental "boredom" and/or distractions from family members projecting their own "I'm Starrrrrving" feelings onto me and imagining that I must be dying of starvation.

I've done the "Master Cleanse" water/lemons/cayenne/maple syrup type B fast before - it was okay but there again, there was the boredom factor (which means I really am much more of an emotional eater than anything else) as well as the "chewing deprivation" - I really don't like beverage fasts, taking in a few calories by drinking stuff, I guess because the "taste" to me is released in chewing. So if I'm gonna fast, I generally just do the no water no food for a day and then take on a little bit of water after that...

Someday... would be interesting to do a much longer fast.

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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/16/17 11:05 A

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I was referring to the juicing fast with a lot of fruit and veggies... (the usual veggies being carrots, beets, tomato). The main macro being carb.

Cynthia
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-JAMES-'s Photo -JAMES- Posts: 14,248
3/16/17 10:33 A

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SIMCYN,
I can't imagine a "fast" that substitutes protein and fat with carbs. I think of a fast as a reduction in intake, not a substitution.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting

The sort of fast (I haven't done one), that I'm thinking of related to Keto, is a "bone broth fast" where you consume bone broth during the fasting time. Bone broth seems to have a range of micro-nutrients that you need.
draxe.com/bone-broth-fast/

James
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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/16/17 8:36 A

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Interesting Articles Proverb... I agree that the first one was more geared to a high protein diet. They talked about doing these different fasts.. but besides the water fast... they were heavy on carbs. Is this something that done with the keto group here who fast? Are your fasts mainly carbs?

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3/16/17 12:32 A

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A great discussion going on here.

Jules, you are as clever as anyone else. First of all, my wife has pointed out, that except perhaps in prison, what people eat is not perfectly controlled. If you do experiments on people, you are relying that they ate what they tell you. So the data on that is already somewhat unsure.

Measuring calories in food used to come from burning it and measuring the heat produced. 9 calories per gram of fat, 4 for carbs, 4 for protein. But then there are different types of carbs, and different calories for each one ...

But the human body doesn't burn foods the way a flame does. So how accurate are those numbers?

My opinions on this are that when faced with plenty of calories the body just doesn't extract every possible calorie, why should it? Its like money, if you have lots you tend to be to a degree wasteful, or not go shopping for the best deals.

My opinion on starvation mode is that when faced with the opposite, with fewer calories, that the body is either more efficient at extracting calories from food, or it changes other things, like blood flow, to reduce heat loss, or move more efficiently, or slowly, to make the calories last.

As for getting say all your calories from fat, perhaps body fat, well it isn't all about just calories. Your body need things for structure. Protein is needed for lean body mass maintenance. Yes you can burn protein for calories too. It is like using wood to build a house, or using wood to throw in the furnace to heat it.

But if you ate nothing but fat, or if you fasted and lived off your own body fat, then your muscles don't get the protein they need for maintenance. For a few days this would be OK, but long term the muscles will reduce in mass.

Do I "believe" in starvation mode? Well, yes. Do I have any proof? Well, no.


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PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 5,878
3/16/17 12:03 A

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Fasting and Ketosis - but this article seems to be fixtated on the Atkins style, with the higher protein diets

www.allaboutfasting.com/effects-of-f
as
ting-ketosis.html


Then there is a link to the next article about recognizing "True Hunger" -
www.allaboutfasting.com/safe-fasting
-t
rue-hunger.html


I thought it was interesting, one of the recipes, the author seemed almost defensive about using healthy fat (cream) - was almost like they didn't want to admit they were doing KETO, or maybe didn't (yet) know about it? or something - not sure... here's that link: www.allaboutfasting.com/homemade-fro
ze
n-yogurt.html


She girds herself with strength, And strengthens her arms.
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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/15/17 10:53 P

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True, a person should recognize and only eat to satisfy hunger. At least for me though.. I was going... still going through... a stressful time (deaths, illness, etc of family) and had no hunger. That and since I had been keto for some time... I absolutely had no hunger. Plus since I was spending so many days at my parent's house... there wasn't much I could eat...even if I had wanted to. Think candy, cakes, and cookies with a side of pasta.

Anyway... I stalled in my weight loss and even gained when I was only eating between 500-800 calories a day. I am just saying that a person should be careful to eat enough calories since metabolic syndrome is fairly common. I'm diagnosed with PCOs with accompanied metabolic syndrome. I suspect there are a lot of people who are undiagnosed also.

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*JENNIE*'s Photo *JENNIE* Posts: 60
3/15/17 9:24 P

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Yes, the amount of calorie deficit tolerated for each person is very individual - and the definition of "low calorie" is incredibly variable. Keto experts actually have a strong preference for patients to NOT track calories, just carbs. They want people to learn what being satiated feels like (not "stuffed", not "so full", just satisfied) and to eat only until satiated. And then not eat again until hungry (not "I feel like a snack" or "It's noon so I should eat" but "my body is asking for fuel").

Even those with metabolic syndrome can eat so that they are at a calorie deficit - but how much of a deficit will be different for everyone, so the rate of fat loss is different for everyone. That is why I said you should eat until not hungry... and not to just let yourself be hungry all the time as that hunger triggers cortisol which is a primary hormone in the cascade of hormones that cause metabolic syndrome. As you become fat adapted, the amount of calories needed daily will start to decrease as you use up calories from fat stores.

Metabolic syndrome and having a slow metabolism are different things - metabolic syndrome is a specific medical diagnosis with a host of complicated things occurring in the body, all of which make a person more resistant to becoming fat adapted... meaning it can take 8+ weeks to be a fat burner. But it's worth the journey as the keto diet starts to heal the inflammatory state and restore better health over time :-)


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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/15/17 9:07 P

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Jennie... very well written explanation. The only thing that I don't wholly agree with is the statement
"When a person who is fat-adapted on a Ketogenic diet, you are a fat-burning machine. When you are not providing the body with adequate calories from food intake, you will simply start to use up the fat stores."

I only say this because for a person who is already suffering from metabolic syndrome... even when they are doing keto... burning the fat can be difficult. I do believe though that with continued adherence to the diet.. a person can cure the syndrome... at least I am hoping so.

Anyway... for a person who already has metabolic syndrome... they shouldn't go low calorie, even while doing keto.

Edited by: SIMCYN at: 3/15/2017 (21:08)
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3/15/17 7:28 P

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That makes a lot of sense! Thank you Jennie!

*JENNIE*'s Photo *JENNIE* Posts: 60
3/15/17 5:15 P

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Hi there!

This is a confusing topic, partly because the terms aren't well defined so things get all mixed up :-)

What I think you want to know is: will consistently eating much lower calories that your body burns each day, cause you to decrease your metabolism ("go into starvation mode")?

In a Standard American Diet (SAD), since it is carb based and the body doesn't not store much carb for energy - when you go drastically below your metabolic needs (say 1000 calories or less per day), your body DECREASES its metabolic needs so that you burn much less at rest. When this occurs for a long time, you can semi-permanently to permanently alter the metabolic level (studies of Biggest Loser contestants have illustrated this well).

In a person who is fat-adapted on a Ketogenic diet, you are a fat-burning machine. When you are not providing the body with adequate calories from food intake, you will simply start to use up the fat stores.

Caveats:
1)You will harvest your muscles for protein if you don't have adequate protein intake over time. Because of this, most Keto experts suggest NOT fasting for long periods (ie more than 5-7 days) because the lack of protein will lead to muscle loss & start to slow your metabolism.

2) If you eat so few calories as to feel hungry all the time, you will be stressing your cells as there is a maximum rate as which your body can comfortably extract energy from your fat stores. If you decrease calories too excessively, this will result in increasing your cortisol level. Cortisol increase leads to some insulin resistance so that you will release larger amounts of insulin, making you feel more hungry and thus you feel more stress. This kind of stress will ALSO tell your body to decrease your metabolism because the body is not able to provide your cells with the energy required.

Keto doctors and experts in the field recommend COMFORTABLE fasting when you are ready & well fat-adapted. They recommend eating whole, real foods, moderate protein and enough fat to feel satiated. Just how long you can fast, and what your minimum calorie requirement per day should be, is VERY individual. Fasting is not a requirement of the lifestyle, but can help aid in faster fat loss if done comfortably.

I hope this helps some! Good luck on your journey!

Edited by: *JENNIE* at: 3/15/2017 (17:19)
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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/15/17 2:32 P

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Very interesting.... I knew there was a reason that I have a fondness for those down under.

Cynthia
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PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 5,878
3/15/17 2:10 P

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Interesting email today - seems the Australian Government is coming out in favor of KETO - Low Carb High Fat -
www.dietdoctor.com/australian
-governme
nt-research-agency-releases-l
ow-ca
rb-diet-book?utm_source=Diet+Doct
o
r+Newsletter&utm_campaign=1715ed4<
BR>e8f-Test&utm_medium=email&u
tm_
term=0_41db911777-1715ed4e8f-465028481


Edited by: PROVERBS31JULIA at: 3/15/2017 (14:11)
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3/15/17 9:50 A

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Very cool having access to LexisNexis this summer! Maybe you can share some of the info you find (the links won't work since we aren't paid subscriber$!)? The KETO Clarity team frequently discusses doctors who are pro-KETO, pro LCHF, and/or pro-intermittent fasting. The big money like Diabetes Association tend to not be as supportive of research on KETO...

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3/15/17 9:16 A

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I believe you are right Julia because there are so many conflicting articles on the whole "starvation mode."

I even read somewhere that EVERYONE goes into a "mini-keto" every day because when you sleep for about 8 hours, you get rid of a lot of your glycogen and when you wake up, you are almost depleted (this is for people on carb-heavy diets.) This is why they tell those people to work out first thing in the morning so they burn the most fat.

Also, I've read articles that say keto and starvation are different sides of the same coin. When people go into actual starvation, they do go into an involuntary ketogenic state because they aren't get any carbs (or anything else for that matter) so ketosis is similar to starving in a person who eats a carb-heavy diet. BUT. . .since a person who is on a LCHF WOE takes in sustenance in the form of mostly fat. . .they don't *actually* starve. . .

It's fascinating to read but at the same time very confusing because there are so many conflicting things out there.

Since I'll be going back to school in the summer and I'll have access to LexisNexis, I'm going to focus on reading peer reviewed academic papers on the topic to see if I get any more understanding on this.

PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 5,878
3/15/17 12:16 A

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Nooope... the smartest pencils in the box are the ones that know when they don't know everything there is to know. The "confusion" is that everyone else is confused...and writing all their confused opinions without clearly stating it's just their opinions.

Here is one of the coolest websites I've read on fasting - and there are videos of people commenting (this one couple, in particular, fasted 5 days I think, and recorded video of them commenting on their issues and feelings and thought processes for each day. Plus - they had a young son with them the entire time who was NOT fasting. So it's interesting.).

www.allaboutfasting.com/

It's a huge site, and if I remember right, part of it dealt with the KETO aspect of intermittent fasting. But in many places it discusses that whatever the fasting protocol one is using (especially the multi-day affairs), the body is just fasting along, burning up crud, helping you cleanse out your system, and basically one isn't feeling "hungry" after that first day or two of fasting (especially for one who has never ever fasted before - in my case, I've done annual 24 hour fasts no food no water for Yom Kippur, which is NOT the same thing as a KETO intermittent fasting protocol.)...

so basically, as I was starting to say, one is just fasting along and after awhile, kinda getting into it and learning how to use the time used for "preparing foods, eating foods, cleaning up after foods" etc aspect of the usual non-fasting state to do other activities ...and at some point, the body is "done" fasting, or at a point where it needs some specific food to finish processing, maybe a short break in the fasting, before you could fast again.

At that point, I guess it's a real hunger, a sharp hunger, and if THAT point is ignored, the body does rapidly start preparing for starvation mode. I've never been there before. I would like to try it at some point. The biggest issue for me is the rest of the family and friends and their conflicted feelings and emotions and related baggage regarding the concept of fasting.

So that's kind of my understanding, thus far, but then again, I don't know it all either!

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SIMCYN's Photo SIMCYN Posts: 2,495
3/14/17 10:45 P

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Love this discussion and Jules... I for one and I am sure most wouldn't consider you argumentative.

I've said before that I don't lose and have even gained when when I go below 1,000 calories. I have plenty of fat stores... in the perfect world my body would use those stores for energy.

There are loads of hormones and enzymes in the body that have their specific jobs. It doesn't take much to muck them up. Either the hormones are not being made or not being received. Either way.. the metabolic function suffers.

That is why the Keto WOE makes so much sense for me. Hormones are made mostly of fats, plus it is a way to "train" your body to burn fat for energy.

Cynthia
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3/14/17 10:38 P

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You are not being difficult at all. It is very confusing. So yes while we are/have trained our bodies to use fat stores, it will still go into protection mode if over a period of time(and it could vary from person to person) it sees it is not getting enough fuel. Like I said intermittent fasting will not cause this. Long term low calorie feeding does this. Its the survival mode. At first it will happily burn fat stores, but if it continues to get low (800kcal and below, again this depends on the person) calories on a daily basis lets say for several weeks it eventually will start slowing the burning and start to use the fuel more efficiently, first starts hair loss and other cosmetic issues(basically it cuts unimportant functions that burn calories), then it will just slow to survive on the calories you are giving it and do it's best to stop burning fat stores just in case the fuel stops completely. Your body is a complicated machine, and pretty smart on adapting to survive.

5 days of fasting might be OK for one person and not another. It's all trial and error, but remember your body thrives when it is properly fueled and will work it's best at utilizing energy and fat stores if it is not unduly stressed. I see the conflict, but I've personally experienced that when I increased fuel I lost more weight.

Our brains are still wired if I eat less I'll lose more and that just isn't quiet how your body wants to work. It's interesting to see both sides of the argument.

nothing is impossible, the word itself says i'm possible!!!

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3/14/17 10:16 P

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. . .and I hope no one thinks I'm trying to be difficult. I just hear so many conflicting things and I just really want to understand.

So if it seems like I'm being argumentative, I promise, I'm not. I'm just really confused. . .

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3/14/17 9:58 P

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But what is confusing me is that in keto, unless you are at 2% body fat or less. . .you have PLENTY of energy stores so you shouldn't start slowing down your metabolism until you get to the point where you pretty much have no body fat.

Your body is "supposed" to be using fat and your fat stores as energy when you are keto adapted so why would someone's metabolism slow down if they are keto adapted. . . .plus have body fat. .. even if they don't eat for say. . . .5 days?

JOJOSLIVIN's Photo JOJOSLIVIN SparkPoints: (85,304)
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3/14/17 8:59 P

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It was explained to me like this. If you consistently eat low calorie no matter how you eat, your body will go into protection mode and start storing and slowing your metabolism. So if you fast 1-2 days and then eat normal or a little higher than normal in calories you will not do harm, but if you eat 800 calories a day for a long period of time you do damage.

I think the key here is with intermittent fasting it is either a single 24 hr period or an eating cycle so you body isn't thinking it is starving yet. You are basically tricking your body, one day eat plenty of fuel and the next drop to little fuel then for the next few days eat plenty of fuel. Thus your body never adjust for the lack of calories.

nothing is impossible, the word itself says i'm possible!!!

making it possible one step at a time

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NIGHTSKYSTAR's Photo NIGHTSKYSTAR SparkPoints: (691,582)
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3/14/17 7:11 P

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well if you are dumb then so am i..and i'm NOT..so neither are you. No clue..i do know that at 250 pounds, my doc told me my bloodwork showed that i was anorexic. that was in 2001...HOW, at 250, can one be anorexic? I dont know. I do feel that by my fasting i have given up any hope of ever eating 3 squares again..i'll gain. Speaking of which..being totally on keto, i've gained 5 pounds since last thursday. so explain that to me, too...

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JULESHIDENKA's Photo JULESHIDENKA SparkPoints: (7,184)
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3/14/17 5:43 P

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I really hesitated posting this because while I don't think I'm the dullest pencil in the box, I know this will come off as a stupid question. I've read up on this topic and there are SO MANY conflicting "facts" so I was wondering if someone can explain this to me like I'm a 4 year old.

So I hear a lot about "starvation mode." There are whole threads on it in Reddit and other forums. Some people say that it is totally bogus that the only time you are in "starvation mode" is when you are actually starving and about to die. Some people claim that it is when you don't get enough calories and your body slows its metabolism and cannibalizes its muscles and organs.

From what I understand, if you are keto-adapted, your body won't start cannibalizing muscles/organs until your fat is all used up, correct? Even if you go way below what you should on calories?

Even if you go into severe caloric deficit while on keto, and even if your body slows down its metabolism, it's still going to go for the fat first as an energy source, correct? This is why on HFLC WOE, they sometimes recommend intermittent fasting?

Is my understanding somehow flawed?

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