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1/28/19 10:03 A

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thats exactly right Tilly. Also, if you have yoyo dieted. up and down, every restretching makes it harder.

Holly
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ROMANTILLY's Photo ROMANTILLY Posts: 9,193
1/28/19 10:00 A

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The older you get, the less elastic your skin is. If you have been overweight for a significant period of time (like me), and you are older, then your skin will not shrink back, it will sag. The more elastic the skin, the greater the ability to shrink back to its' normal, think of a pregnant woman. Her skin shrinks back to normal and she has a flat tummy again. Strength training will help you be more toned, but the more important thing for us women is that as we get older, we produce less estrogen which means less bone mass and growth and less elastic skin. Weight bearing exercises allow for us to not lose bone as much as we would if we don't perform them. I had a DEXA scan when I was still in my late 40's and I was already showing bone loss. I have a family history of bone loss on the female side. I try to do strength training as well as brisk walking/moderate jogging for weight bearing exercise.

Like James said, fat cells don't go away. They shrink, but they stay. The only way to get rid of fat cells permanently is through the body's absorption of them when they self destruct or through liposuction.

Lisa L. South, BSN, RN


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MARIENOW's Photo MARIENOW SparkPoints: (15,742)
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1/27/19 3:13 P

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Thank James for reposting. I didn't see that post. I saw the one in the "Tracking Fat" thread. So I will read through that.

The one thing that pops out is I don't think fat cells ever die completely. Maybe a percentage do but everything I've read always said they are permanent, which is what causes the problem. But I don't know though. I haven't read up on the latest theories. If fat cells so die off after 8 years or so, that would be awesome.

Also, I'm not exercising for weight loss. It's not about the scale, I just want to feel comfortable in my body, no matter what I weigh. There's that idea of "skinny fat" meaning people look fine in clothes but underneath it all there's a problem. As I'm losing weight, I'm starting to worry that it could happen to me. That's what I'm hoping to avoid. I just want to feel comfortable. I'm still in the "dating world" (ugh!) so maybe I'm more self-conscious than I should be.



-JAMES-'s Photo -JAMES- Posts: 14,390
1/27/19 12:15 P

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Exercise is great for fitness, muscle toning, etc. You can target which parts of you get fit.

It has almost no impact on weight loss, maybe a 10% impact at most.

You can't target where any weight loss comes from. As for dealing with flab after weight loss, your body may recover to some degree. Fat cells deflate. I doubt that fat cells live forever, I think they just live a long time on average. I've seen sources with a sort of 8 year lifespan. I've also seen sources saying that about 10% die each year, and can be replaced.

Holly and I compared notes, and we both have, or had certain bumps of scar tissue under our skin, and over the years of Keto they are virtually gone. Holly didn't even notice that one of her bumps was gone, it was only after I said mine was that she had a look at her arm.

My background is in physics, and this rearrangement of body fat makes me think of nuclear decay, where the unstable nuclei have a half life. I can see this model of lifetime working pretty well for cells too. So when you are younger, and your metabolism is faster, perhaps this process is also faster and you can recover faster. As you get older, I'd guess that this process is slower.

Edited by: -JAMES- at: 1/27/2019 (12:17)
James
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All time highest weight : 217 pounds

Starting weight : 195.0 pounds (June 7, 2012)
Final weight : 168.2 pounds (July 23, 2013)


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-JAMES-'s Photo -JAMES- Posts: 14,390
1/27/19 11:59 A

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Here is a re-post (cut/paste) from a loose skin topic in the exercise section:

I gave this a fair bit of thought before posting. I don't think autophagy has much impact with skin when loosing weight.

Autophagy means "eat yourself". So old cells are killed or die, and there bio-chemical parts are used elsewhere. In theory this self reconstruction could clean up old cells, perhaps loose skin cells. Elsewhere I've posted that there are a few ways to boost autophagy, fasting and intermittent fasting looks like one way to promote this, but so does eating Ketogenically, with no fasting.

But in the end, does autophagy help with loose skin, and help speed reconstruction?

Skin has three main layers.
1) - Epidermis, the outer layer of cells, about 75 cells deep, about 1/250 inch, with a cell lifetime of 10 to 30 days

2) - Dermis, much thicker, about 1/25

Both of these are very thin, and with their short lifetime autophagy is more imporant. But lets face it, when we have loose folds of stuff on the outside of our body its not this super thin exterior coating we are talking about it is the thick folds of stuff we can grab with our fingers, seems like fat. Well it is fat.

Then next layer of skin just under that is:

3) - Hypodermis, latin for below the dermis, this is mainly adipose tissue, or fat. For super lean people this is about 1/10 inch, but for myself and probably many others on this team who can pinch an inch (or whatever it is) this layer is a lot thicker

So as fat cells go away, we want autophagy to help reconstruct this, to make the folds and volume go away. Here is a chart on cell lifetime:
book.bionumbers.org/how-quick
ly-do-dif
ferent-cells-in-the-body-repl
ace-t
hemselves/

Near the bottom of the list in that link, it says fat cells have a lifetime of 8 years.



So the fat cells have a lifetime of not a few weeks or a month like the top two thin layers, but on that time scale they are almost immortal. How is it that we every loose body fat? Well fat cells hold a variable amount of fat. As you loose body fat all the fat cells deflate, but don't die. They don't die very often, and autophagy really isn't an issue.

I don't know what it is in the body that helps much. Loosing weight slowly however would seem the way to do it to give the body time to reconstruct itself, and eating Ketogenically already promotes autophagy if that helps.

Edited by: -JAMES- at: 1/27/2019 (12:03)
James
Alberta, Canada


All time highest weight : 217 pounds

Starting weight : 195.0 pounds (June 7, 2012)
Final weight : 168.2 pounds (July 23, 2013)


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MARIENOW's Photo MARIENOW SparkPoints: (15,742)
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1/27/19 11:46 A

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Thanks guys! I will check out You Are Your Own Gym and work on both stamina and strength.

I really feel I'll be able to bounce back if I build some muscle or rebuild muscle I lost being inactive. I'm not looking for perfection, I just want to look in the mirror and feel good.

LIMELITESHINES's Photo LIMELITESHINES SparkPoints: (52,075)
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1/27/19 9:11 A

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The whole muscle/fat thing is actually true either way. It just depends on how you look at it.

If you look at one pound of fat, vs one pound of muscle - they both weigh one pound!

But, if you look at one cubic square of fat, vs one cubic square of muscle - that cubic square of muscle is going to weigh more.

So technically everyone is right. lol It's just a viewpoint! :)

~*~*~*~* Meredith *~*~*~*~ aka: Mere

ANTI-BLAH - MEXICO Division. Classical Music and High Altitude Correspondent. (keeping this for nostalgia's sake) :)

"It's not who you are that holds you back . . . it's who you think you are not."

One day at a time . . .

You are stronger than you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give it a shot, take that first step . . . you will surprise yourself. Then STICK WITH IT! You can only improve from where you are!


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RHOADAN's Photo RHOADAN Posts: 428
1/27/19 2:02 A

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Can't say that I'm a fan of the "Muscle is heavier than fat" crowd either. What they mean to say is that "Muscle is DENSER than fat," which is why as one improves one's physical condition, one can lose inches without losing weight. I'm frankly more interested in changing my body composition (i.e. reducing my percentage body fat) than in losing weight per se.

Dunno if it would help, but you could try increasing your collagen intake (personally I recommend soup stock/bone broth or a good quality unflavored gelatin that you can then flavor to taste over supplements. Apparently, that's helped some people with saggy skin.

On strength training, my understanding is that increasing weight improves strength, but increasing reps improves stamina. It might be a good idea to work on both. If you have a smartphone, there are plenty of exercise apps available. Be sure to check reviews first.

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1/27/19 1:12 A

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So... my $.02:

#1 - unless you take testosterone supplements and eat exorbitant amounts of protein every day, you are not going to get bulky, TRUST ME. Research this one, for sure! You have to work crazy hard as a female to get super bulky. I lift HEAVY weights, even heavier when I had lost my weight originally - and I had very slight definition. That was it.

#2 - your current equipment is good to start with, and to transition into high rep workouts. So you could work with those for now, and save your pennies. Eventually you will want to lift heavier!

#3 - lifting weights WILL help with loose skin, but it won't get rid of it completely. That takes time, and it may never shrink all the way back. Honestly it all depends on your body. There are women out there who were overweight for a long time, who bounced right back. Others have bags of loose skin. It's not always in our control.

#4 - an elliptical machine is great for cardio - not much else. There are great programs out there for bodyweight exercises to start with. Look into "You Are Your Own Gym" - I did those quite a bit while I was in Mexico, and they are a GREAT way to start building that muscle!

~*~*~*~* Meredith *~*~*~*~ aka: Mere

ANTI-BLAH - MEXICO Division. Classical Music and High Altitude Correspondent. (keeping this for nostalgia's sake) :)

"It's not who you are that holds you back . . . it's who you think you are not."

One day at a time . . .

You are stronger than you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give it a shot, take that first step . . . you will surprise yourself. Then STICK WITH IT! You can only improve from where you are!


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MARIENOW's Photo MARIENOW SparkPoints: (15,742)
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1/26/19 10:26 P

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Maybe I'm being impatient. I still have a lot to lose, I'm not even halfway there yet. So maybe it won't be too much of an issue once I actually get to my goal weight. Until then I can do the stepper and the hand weights. I might eventually join a gym again down the line. The Soloflex looks fun but wow they are expensive!

I did the stepper tonight and was already feeling "the burn" in my legs and butt after just a couple minutes. I'm so out of shape!

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1/26/19 10:41 A

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Marie..think of it this way. you cant stuff 200 pounds of potatos into a sack that should only hold 100 pounds, without the sack stretching. and if that 200 pounds is there for a while, its not going to go back no matter how much you work, or eat keto, or fast, or whatever.
someone said..look at the auschwitz suvivors they didnt have loose skin. Well, thats because they werent fat to begin with.

yes you can do something about it..surgery. I prefer to wear it like a badge..i'm a badass and got rid of the fat..these are my battlescars!! plus i cant afford surgery..unless you have infections from overlapped skin, its considered vanity surgery and your insurance wont pay.

yes that analogy is fine on the muscle vs fat..but a pound is still a pound, is still a pound. so, a pound of muscle will look different than a pound of fat, like if you put a pound of fat next to a pound of feathers, there will be more feathers to look at, but they still weigh the same.

Holly
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1/26/19 10:24 A

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As far as muscle weighing more than fat, I read an analogy that made sense. Something like one pound of marshmallows will look different than one pound of steel. Fat is like marshmallows in that it takes up more room than steel. But it does look different on your body. Your skin can adapt as long as you still have enough elasticity in your skin, so age is a factor. But you can always at least tighten up.

Does that sound right?

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1/26/19 10:23 A

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I found the post James wrote about excess skin. I'm a little confused. I read it as him saying that he has some excess skin and that he discovered the reason for that in a lightbulb moment.

But how do you get rid of it? KD, you mentioned autophagy will take care of it, but if someone has been in ketosis for years, wouldn't that have been enough time to get rid of it?

I guess I'm just noticing I have these spots on my body with flab that I never had before (like stomach and arms). I have had issues on my lower body but that's normal for women. I've been reading online and people seem to say you can't get rid of it. Yet people who are really in shape don't have that problem. So I was thinking the answer is to build muscle.


KDGIRL's Photo KDGIRL Posts: 5,623
1/26/19 10:05 A

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This is absolutely true. What works for someone who is 20 years old and 20 pounds overweight is much different than what works for someone who is 60 years old and 100 pounds overweight. And all categories in between

I'm not trying to get anyone to have a heart attack by overexerting themselves - just realize that you don't have to do a LOT to have some significant results.

See your doctor is always the best advice.

Karen "KD"





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1/26/19 9:47 A

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i'm going to be a buzzkill again and say...if you do the bursts KNOW YOUR LIMITS! Many of us here have been overweight and sick for a long, long time...I dont disagree with what you say, KD, and i'm so glad you put it looks different for everyone. but if you have any medical condition please check with your doctor before doing ANY exercise program.

Holly
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KDGIRL's Photo KDGIRL Posts: 5,623
1/26/19 9:07 A

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I've been listening to JJVirgin and her podcast a lot lately because she has really good guests. A huge nugget or two of information from each of them.

She recommends burst training - where you go as hard as you can for whatever exercise (climbing stairs, jumping rope, lifting weights, etc.) for 30-60 seconds, then rest for twice that time. You are going to the extent of your limit, which could look very different for me or another person. Your best improves, you get fitter. Best of all, you are spending less than 10 minutes a day on that training. And it's free.

You should totally keep up the walking in addition if it makes you feel better!!

As far as loose skin goes - autophagy will eventually help with that. And keto make it happen.

Karen "KD"





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MEADSBAY's Photo MEADSBAY Posts: 14,732
1/25/19 9:18 P

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I believe James just posted a long reply on another thread about the whole excess skin after weight loss issue...look for that.


elizabeth

*I will never~ever~ever give up!


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1/25/19 6:45 P

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ok i may not be right about this, but i've read that the "sculpting and tightening" thing is a myth. what happens is, you build muscle, which gets bigger, and fills in. its not going to tighten your skin, its going to fill it with muscle like it used to be filled with fat.
And please, someone that knows more than i, correct that if i'm incorrect.

a pet peeve of mine is when someone says "muscle weighs more than fat". Nope, it doesnt. a pound of muscle and a pound of fat weigh exactly the same thing.

so..on the weights..I use a soloflex...and i just do it. when the current weight is too easy, i add or up to the next one. I concentrate on doing the exercise with correct form, and I do as many reps as it takes to tire. and then i stop, wait a minute, and repeat..for 3 sets. This is what Solofles recommends..you dont increase weights every set.

It has really helped with conditioning.

but i dont know if what you are asking is correct or not. maybe check out some weight lifting forums on google?

Holly
Northern NY
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1/25/19 6:06 P

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If anyone has any expertise on this, I'm all ears. I've been looking online and honestly there's just SO much fitness stuff, I'm not sure which sites know what they're talking about.

I have been walking about 2 miles most days. So I feel I'm getting enough cardio. I know people here have mentioned that exercise isn't necessary with Keto, but walking is actually something I love. It's like therapy for me.

After losing weight, my body is getting smaller for sure, but I am actually MORE flabby then I was before. I have more cellulite now. I was thinking about lifting weights to get rid of flap and sculpt my body. I can't afford to join a gym and honestly, I don't have a good track record with gyms anyway. I have 10, 5, and 2-pound hand weights at home, plus one of those old school "steppers" that's manual, nothing electric on it.

Do you think I could build enough muscle to tighten up all the flab with just the equipment I already have? If so, how long would that take?

Or would I really need to join a gym to use their big machines or get some type of elliptical machine at home?. Which equipment do you use?

I remember doing hand weights years ago and I did 15 reps with the smallest weight, followed by 15 with the middle, and then 15 with the heaviest weight. Then I repeated that about 5 times IIRC. Is that the correct way to build muscle?

I'm looking to sculpt but not necessarily get bulky. I want to get rid of the flab mainly.

Thank you in advance. :)

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