On Keto and STARVING

im going to partially disagree with James..yes mag does help with cramping, but many use it to keep bowels moving. you take as little as you need..or like James says, try saltwater that helps too.
you do need the salt..i use himalayan pink salt. i bought a shaker and a bag of it..3 years ago..and it will probably last me another 5 years...lol it was a big bag!!

the rest, as i said..go over with your doc. people get all wild about you have to take this or that..if you are not getting nutrients in your food your doc may suggest some. but that normally doesnt happen. actually..i take cranberry capsules, per my doc, because i'm prone to UTIs. I also take tart cherry extract, as i had gout once, and suspected 3 other times. she felt the tart cherry might help. but all were her suggestions. the last thing i take per her is biotin. i was one that started thinking i needed low calories, and my hair started falling out and nails got brittle..the biotin is to help with the hair. but again..these are JUST from my doc suggesting them for support, not nutrients.

Thanks, Holly and James!

I will definitely check with my GP. I will get blood work done so we have a baseline...

I'm not super into taking a lot of supplements... Unless it's needed. Thanks for your wisdom!

Hmmm, magnesium seems to be something for cramps. I guess at the start of Keto, in the first two weeks roughly, with the hydration issues (loosing a lot of water that was bound up with carbs) you could have cramps.

I'm sure there are others that have issues farther into it. But I'd just stay hydrated early on, and power aid zero with electrolytes ... though I personally just had warm water with salt, and stopped that after a few weeks.

While I mentioned staying hydrated early on, ... in the long run I've not tried to "get in" my 8 glasses of water or anything like that... I just drink when I'm thirsty. I'm not suggesting any supplements without medical advice.

if you want collagen get plain gelatin. People want to buy all this expensive stuff..its not needed

Thanks, Holly!

The reason I ask is because the first time (about a year ago) that I did the Keto WOE, I was told to supplement with magnesium and collagen. Just curious if you have any recommendations or personal experience with these two?

Cheers!
- Carol

Edited by: CYBRVELD at: 6/27/2020 (17:53)

I think you should check with your health professional about supplements. I would strongly suggest you do NOT take potassium unless directed by your doc. Some ketoers will tell you its imperative, but PLEASE trust me on this. potassium balance can be tricky..too much or too little and you can end up in the ICU with arrythmia. I know this from personal experience. What you get in your food and a multivit is perfectly fine. adding more may not be.
That said..i take magnesium citrate, to help keep me "regular". thats pretty safe, dont take over 400 mg a day. I take a multivit. I take a b 12 complex, directed by my doc, vit D also directed by my doc. thats it.

Hello all! The rest of my week was OK... slowly upping my calories until I don't feel like I'm starving myself...

Question: what are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY supplements while on Keto?

Are there any other supplements that could be added as well...

Thanks!
- Carol

and i will add..i was absolutely dead set against keto BECAUSE of the fat. when my kid told me what he was doing i had a cow..said you are going to give yourself a heart attack!! i was in nursing. I am sure i could pass a registered dietitian course without any schooling i've researched so much all my life...and this went against EVERYTHING i knew..as did no fruit..little to no veg..i was horrified. my kid was patient with me. Mom..look at the research. fat is only bad combined with carbs. dont eat carbs its GOOD for you.
takes a while to retrain your brain. some wont, or cant, accept it. but its the truth!

CYBRVELD,
there are two things that tend to freak people out ... first of all for non-Keto, there has been an avoidance of fat. Fat has the most calories per gram, you can eat "more" if you avoid fat.

Yes, you can eat more weight of food for the same calories. But the goal is not to eat more weight of stuff, the goal is to not be hungry, to have energy, and lastly, if it works out ... to enjoy what you eat. If you were in the wild you wouldn't have a choice about eating things so much. I have this to eat right now, but there are things I like more, so I'll not eat this and hope to find that ... No, in the wild you don't get to pick so much, so the pleasure of eating is last.

So the first thing about Keto is "all that fat". The second issue is to get over the mindset that lower calories means faster weight loss. Kind of, but kind of not. Getting the nutrition your body needs is the thing, and cutting "empty" calories. If you get the nutrition your body isn't looking to eat more. Like potato chips, about zero nutrients (except for the fat they are fried in). You eat some, ... body says no nutrients in that, maybe in the next one, eat another handful, nope, maybe in the next one ...

PS..a few people gain on upping their calories..i've never heard of more than 3 pounds..then it levels off and they start losing. it all depends on where you are in the metabolism damage.

when you see someone lose weight very quickly, often its someone that never dieted before, never restricted cals, therefore hasnt damaged their metabolism. the rest of us..its slower while our bodies are "fixing things"

it is mind blowing. my old coach took one of his clients, she hadnt lost any weight for a year. they both went on 5k cals a day (both said it was awful stuffing all that down). they did the fancy body composition stuff as they expected to gain.

at the end of the time, she had LOST weight, kept ALL her muscle.
He gained, i think 4 pounds? 3 of which were muscle.

the point is, 5 thousand cals a day..strict keto only..and they didnt show huge gains. they do NOT suggest anyone do that..lol..it was strictly an experiment to prove the theory. He has done it again since..with close to the same results, i dont believe he gained at all the second time.
its all quite interesting,,,and frankly wonderful...

Thanks, Holly! Yep! There is the 1800 calories you speak of! Mind blown! Thanks for the link!

Carol, imagine my surprise and horror when mine were 2300 a day!!! i said i simply could NOT eat that much food...my then coach said really? i'm betting you ate more than that when you were 300 pounds...and he was right. i did. we have just all been conditioned to CICO, which has been totally disproven for health.

heres a quick calculator that many go by for TDEE, with a macro breakdown. as you will see, unless you are an olympic caliber athlete, you leave the exercise section alone.



web-downunder.com/csk

Thanks, James! That is very helpful! I have already been using the formula, however, the multipliers were different. I have used the formula you provided for females and come up with 1104 calories for my BMR, then multiplied by 1.53 (I am a self employed bookkeeper... I sit on my butt ALL DAY LONG) for my TEE to get 1689 total caloric expenditure for one day. I will PROMPTLY up my daily calories hoping to curb the "zombie" effect I am experiencing. I do have a Garmin device, this wonderful gadget tells me that my BMR is currently 1340 calories per day...

Thank you, everyone for chiming in! I will not lie... the upped calories freak me out! But I will give it a go! Check back on Sunday!

Cheers! Have a fantastic week!

Edited by: CYBRVELD at: 6/23/2020 (10:40)

I see NIGHTSKYSTAR posted while I was writing my essay (which took a while).

She wrote: " Go under that your body sees it as starving. Yes you will lose at first, but then it gets harder and harder as your body figures out you are starving it."

I went on with the analogy of walking 30 minutes, or one hour, or 16 hours, etc. I think it is along the same lines.

CYBRVELD,
wow you are around! We are practically chatting. Here is one page from wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris–
Benedict_
equation

I'll use the most recent equation from 1990 or males:
BMR = (10 × weight in kg) + (6.25 × height in cm) - (5 × age in years) + 5

I weight 170 pounds which is 170/2.2 kilograms, which is about 77 kilograms
I am 5 foot 8, or 68 inches which is 68*2.54 = 173 cm
I am 62 years old so my base metabolic rate is:
BMR = (10*77) + (6.25*173) - (5*62) + 5 = 1546

The base rate is really for someone just laying in bed all day and night, just barely staying alive.

So there is also an activity factor on that page. If I'm an office worker with little to no exercise, I still need to multiply by 1.53, I've got a little activity in my day, so let me multiply by 1.6. So then I burn about 2470 calories a day.

You can calculate your BMR too, and multiply by your activity level.
- - - - - -
Let me take a stab in the dark for you, female, 50 years old, 150 pounds, 5 foot 6 inches, the BMR formula for women on that page

BMR = (10 × weight in kg) + (6.25 × height in cm) - (5 × age in years) - 161
BMR = (10*68) + (6.25*168) - (5*50) - 161 = 1320

Lets take the same activity factor, 1320*1.6 = 2112 ... lets just say 2100.
If that were true, eating 1800 a day would be a deficit of 300 calories a day.

Eating 1300 a day would be a deficit of 800, and that is a big deficit. If you are eating 1300 but needing 2100, the missing calories would make you feel ... weak, unwell, ...

- - - - - -
P.S. I want to add that while I often think CICO (Calories In, Calories Out) and think that a pound of body fat holds 3500 calories, I think that way to give me a guideline. But at the same time I don't think the body runs itself like a mathematical equation. A body is a very complex thing. Some people "run hot". They have a higher temperature on their skin, and loose calories through heat, other people have cool skin pretty often. Some people can't sit still and fidget a lot even when they are sort of trying to sit still. Just watch little children at a table trying to sit still and eat. Some people move with jerky inefficient motions, others are more efficient and sloth-like.

I believe that when you cut calories lower and lower (lower than about 1800) that the body starts to do all it can to conserve calories. One feels weak tries to make slower more efficient motions to save calories, and so on. I believe that when you eat more, say 1800 to 2000 range, then you are not in that state. You feel more energetic, and your body wastes more calories, either in motion, or in heat, or something like that. So you get to eat more, and feel better, and move more and burn more calories. From a CICO point of view you are in the same place, but you are eating more and feeling better and have more energy for life.

P.P.S. I am a retired physicist, so I can't help but think about numbers, equations, and the bio-chemistry of eating Keto, and thinking of nutrients, etc. So I'm attracted to CICO. But at the same time I take it as an approximation, when stretched too far it doesn't apply. Sort like this ... I can walk about 4 kilometres in half an hour (about 2.5 miles). So in one hour I can walk 8 kilometres (5 miles). Sounds good so far. So if I'm awake 16 hours during the day, I can walk 128 kilometres before bedtime (80 miles). I'm sure you are thinking you will get very sore, feet will hurt, you'll get blisters, you'll slow down, you can't keep up the original pace. That is true. I think thinking CICO is like that. A reasonable approximation, but in a limited range of applicability.

I’m on my phone so unable to do links, but it’s based on the calories You need just to perform basic daily tasks. Go under that your body sees it as starving. Yes you will lose at first, but then it gets harder and harder as your body figures out you are starving it.

Edited by: NIGHTSKYSTAR at: 6/22/2020 (22:17)

Thanks, James! I would love more resources to educate myself. The thought of consuming 1800 calories makes my head spin... I'm not closing my mind to it. Want to figure it out so I can be successful!

CYBRVELD,
I think you are feeling like a zombie because your calories are too low, not because it is Keto.

Maybe partly feeling starved because your body is still in the middle of switching its internal chemistry to burn fat more easily, maybe.

I agree with Holly's suggestion of about 1800 calories a day, maybe even a little higher, probably not 2800, but maybe 2000. Here are the overall macros I'd suggest for 1800, something like this:
- protein 50 grams (200 cals)
- carbs 20 grams, 25 max (90 cals)
- fat 170 grams (1530 cals)

Its not a lot of food to eat volume wise. It is a lot of fat. I have about 4 cups of coffee each morning, each one with about 2 ounces of heaving whipping cream. That alone is about 80 grams of fat.

I'll try to find a source on why around 1800 calories, and post again, or update this post.

If you could please provide a link to resources... where you saw the 1800 calories... I would love to further educate myself! Cheers! Thanks!

smiles..nope not crazy at all. i can show you the data. if low calorie worked we would all be thin...
but i totally understand the mindset seeing as we have been told forever that we have to cut calories. theres a lot to unlearn with keto. and new things to learn.

I agree on the exercise... I just need to find the energy to do so! Thanks for your input!

Please don't take this peronally - ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?! 1800 calories per day! I seriously do not think I could consume that much food... unless it's straight up coconut oil! I have been contemplating upping my calories, see if that helps... Thanks for your input!

Up your protein and carbs a bit. You should not be hungry. You might want to look at doing exercises to tighten up your core which in turn will tighten up your belly.

I lost 160 pounds NEVER counting calories.
Basic keto goals—
Under 20 g TOTAL carbs a day
50-60 grams protein
The rest fat.
If you are hungry eat fat
Most experts suggest a minimum of 1800 calls a day for women

There’s no reason to ever be hungry!

Hello All! This is not my first go around with the Keto WOE. I did start just by cutting processed foods, eating only whole foods, not watching calories or any macros. Now I'm serious! After two weeks of logging EVERY SINGLE morsel that crosses my lips, I am still successful but I'm STARVING!!! And I feel like a zombie.

My calories are 1300 per day, my macros are 75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs. I am 5' tall, and weigh 119 lbs. I have belly fat that I want gone... I have goals I want to FINALLY reach!

I just tested my blood ketones - 2.8... Blood glucose was 4.0.

Here is my question... should I just suck it up and keep going? Should I eat a little more? What should I eat? Fat? Protein? HELP!!! I can't walk around like a zombie... I have stuff to do! Like RUN!!!

Thank you all in advance! Cheers!
- Carol